Bringing people back from the dead. (BtVS SEASON 8 SPOILERS)

Okay... well I know the argument was mainly about Tara's return in the comic and I am going to defend my point first as to why I think it will happen, then as to why I think it's a good idea. First, we have this quote of Joss's Joss Whedon spoke at the Wizard World convention in Chicago in August 2004 about his original plans for bringing the character of Tara back: “In one of the final episodes, the third to last episode, Buffy was going to basically get a ‘get out of jail free’ card. One completely reality-altering things that she could have - she could bring Angel back to her, she could do anything she wanted. At the end of the episode she basically comes to Willow and says ‘Look at these shoes I got!’ and Willow’s, like, ‘What?’ ‘I got these really awesome shoes. I wanted them, and now I have them!’ and Willow’s like ‘You… used… the wish… for shoes?’ and Buffy says ‘Of course not, you idiot,’ and walks out of the room and Willow turns around and Tara’s standing behind her.” The plan fell through because Amber was busy. Also (Secondly) he's been quoted as saying he's glad to not be working about actor's schedules anymore which means it has an opportunity to do so. Thirdly he'd said he "bring back the maimed". I'm thinking that would be an inside joke. This is a quote from Amber Benson taken, once again, of the BTVS and ATS trivia guide. I was all for me being maimed and coming back, but it wouldn’t have been enough. I feel as upset about it as the fans do. I know it was necessary, but still, ‘No, don’t kill her, I love her! She’s part of me!’ I think that Jos quote might be a reference to that. Fourthly, we've been told at least a little something about everyone. Buffy, Xander, Willow, Dawn, Giles, Faith, Riley, Anya, Spike, and Angel.. the only three people who have gone untalked about are Cordelia (who now belongs to the Angel cast), Oz (who from what I've been informed was slated to become part of the Angel cast) and Tara. Fifthly, every character who left Buffy by any means has been seen again. The only two who didn't were Cordelia (because she was in Angel) and Tara. So that is kind of an anomaly. Now, the opposition I saw on the other thread was that bringing Tara back would do two major things, invalidate what Willow went through, and use an overused plot. First to counter that, I do not think anything can invalidate what Willow went through. She killed two people, nearly killed four...five of her friends... and nearly destroyed the world. These things will weight heavily on her conscience throughout her entire life. No matter what happens to her she has taken a serious blow to her self image that I don't even think having Tara back would help her recover. In fact it might just make it worse. However, and I will admit, my point and anyone else's point is kind of moot on this subject as we cannot know what would happen. The only who could do that for the S8Comic would be Joss himself. I come from the point of view of having read a very very good season 8 and 9 and soon to be 10 continuation of the Buffy series where Tara did in fact return, and it did not detract anything from the story because there were many things being dealt with, it was just a subplot, and one very well handled at that. And to the point that it is an overused plot device, I don't really think that it is. Let's look at who has been ressurected. NOTE!!! For death, I'm counting that the body really gave out. It decomposed, dusted, burned up, got a hole in it, or just otherwised stopped working. BTVS Ressurections: Buffy- Well, my girlfriend more or less has me convinced of the theory that she was in a false heaven in the First's personal dimension. (That dimension is more or less the setting for Chaos Bleeds, and my gf makes the point that Buffy said in heaven she knew her friends were safe which in point of fact they were not, so why would heaven be a lie?). She was definately dead as her body did decompose. Anyways, she was brought back by her friends. We all know this. No wait! you might say. What about Angel? He was revived on Buffy! Well yes... he came back to our dimension, but he wasn't technically "dead". He had been trapped in another dimension, much like Connor had been, we could extend this to Fred as well, and Buffy and Lily in the episode Anne, we can't really count leaving this dimension for a hell dimension as death because the body is just switching locations. So Angel "coming back" was really something done by The PTB, him being sent to hell kinda a glitch in the cosmic system as it were. ATS Ressurections- (I'm not sure these should count, as the comic is still in the realm of Buffy, not Angel) Angel- Okay I'm gonna mention "I Will Remember You" because it technically falls into my realm of an unworking body (vampire- technically dead) becoming alive again. But I don't think people count this as a ressurection, but I'm going to just point it out. I'm not counting this as a real ressurection either. Darla- She was definately dead as her body was well.. dusted. Brought back by the villains, human, dying of syphillis, being used as a tool by Wolfram and Hart. Ultimately, it ended in her being a vampire again. Spike- Okay, I'm not too clear on this one. (READ- I'm only on season 4) But from what I gather his ressurection wasn't voluntary...after his death he was tied to the amulet, and his body did burn up so that counts as dead. Personally... I find his ressurection cheap because he really died a noble death. Not that I don't love Spike, cause I do. But... if we're talking invalidation that is a biggie. So that's three out of how many deaths: Jesse, Darla, Jenny, Kendra, Joyce, Doyle, Buffy, Spike, Anya, Tara, Cordelia, Fred, Wesley, Lilah, Warren, Jonathan, Ben, and I could really keep going with this. And I point out none of the ressurections were remotely similar, none of them dealt with the same reprucussions so it was all interesting. Now. Sure, bringing Tara back from the dead would be a 4th overall Buffyverse ressurection and a 2nd BTVS ressurection. However even if bringing her back fits one cliche, her death fell into TWO cliches: The Buffyverse No Couple Really Lasts Cliche and The Television Lesbian Death Cliche Now I find that BTVS does two things really well- mimic real life and bash cliches. Sure, there are many relationships that end in death and in general just badly in real life, but there are many that last, that stay good and strong, I've seen many people happily together for years and years and I think one couple in the Buffyverse deserves it, and I think Willow and Tara would be the one to last. And BTVS spends a lot of time destroying cliches. Right from the first minute of the show when the "helpless school girl" which is generally slated as the one to die, turns out to be the vampire, it shows that this show is not going to just take TV patterns lying down. So why fall into the lesbian death cliche? Bring Tara back and break that one too! I'm gonna point to the picture in my signature that has the link for The Chosen. I really recommend this to anyone who thinks that a Tara ressurection would be cheap. It's an amazing story, and I close with a quote that exemplifies one of my last points: "I just feel so torn, y'know? On the one hand, I'm totally with Buffy. Somethin's not kosher about this. An' if it's not right, I don't see this endin' in anything but pain and misery. And that's best-case scenario. But then, you start talkin' to Tara, and ... god, it's like nothing's changed." (...)The carpenter let out a mighty sigh. "God, Will's been up and down like a yo-yo. Believe me when I say that for me to even notice is a huge comment on her emotional state. She seems to be levelin' off a bit now, but totally settling into 'Protect Tara' mode ... which leads to lots of sparky joyous fun with the Buffster. And I'd like to Biggie Size my sarcasm." The Bazaar's owner pushed the point. "But does she seem happy?" Xander contemplated the question for a moment as a small frown creased his forehead. "Well mostly at the moment she seems pissy, but ... yeah. She's got a sort of peace that I haven't seen her have in ... a really long time. Longer than I'd like." Banan's tiny smile was inscrutable. "She must have loved this Tara very much." The carpenter's eye grew very wide. "Oh yeah. It was your typical ill-fated, opera-type, tragic romance." He paused for a moment and considered his statement. "We've had a few of those, actually," he added as an afterthought. "They never end well." Banan's smile widened a tad. "Maybe it's time one did. If your friend is happy, isn't that the most important thing?" Xander treated the storekeeper to something of a skeptical glance. "Unfortunately in our world, things are kinda not that simple." ETA: *looks up at post* Thank you Valid and Invalid Reasoning. (A class I took last semester... we got graded on making and refuting arguments)

It is possible that's why she hasn't been mentioned in any interviews like you've said, which I hadn't noticed. Plus Willow is on the cover of the third issue...

Well as you can tell, I'm kinda a rabid supporter of the idea. And so I'm kinda really on alert. As is my girlfriend. And so I'm always looking for information.. I think I've developed a good argument... and I'm not sure if she'll be back as early as volume 3... but out of the at least 50 they've said are planned... I find it hard to believe she'll never show up. Especially when he's said he has a way to work everyone in.

Oh and I amended part of one of my arguments to the extent that for a character to be really ressurected, they had to b physically dead as in body stopped working.

Yes, Joss talked about bringing her back, and as I said maybe he will. It's his project so he's going to do what he thinks is best and what he believes wil entertain us most. I stick by me first point that brining her back invalidates and lessens all the pain that Willow went through. Yes, it's still there in the character's history. But now it becomes an ultimately useless excercise. It takes away from the over all impact of a very dramatic event or series of events if, after the fact, you suddenly reverse the cause of that drama. To borrow Steve's example from Charmed, every time a character died they came back so eventually you stopped worrying so much about it because you knew it wouldn't last. We may be speaking about Willow's pain specifically here, but it also stands for the over all show in general. As for character death, they were all dead, they all came back. Wrap it up in as many pretty bows as you want, in the end it all amountds to the same thing. An over-used plot device is an over-used plot device. It's lazy to keep revisiting the thing over and over again, even if the little details are different the event is the same ... over and over again. From what Steve said in is Charmed example it sounds like they really over did it (i never watched the show much so I never noticed), I don't think it's gotten to that point yet in the Buffy-verse, but it's getting close in my opinion and I really don't want to see that happen. Buffy was fun and I had a great time watching it, i hope to continue having a great time reading it, but the last couple times a character came back from the dead I was a little disappointed. It'll get groan-worthy shortly.

yes she will live with it, but she will be happy none the less. Everything will be as i quote Buffy "hugs and puppys". So tara comming back as alive would be the dumbest move they will make. It would be nice to see her as a dream but nothing more. Its like me saying " Oh man!!! Spike will find buffy and they are going to get back together!!!" It will never happen. I have never seen Charmed but Steve dose have a valid point. It dosent make you wanna read or watch if people kept comming back. Darla, Angel (she stabbed him so he died..period.) Buffy, Spike, all came back. I think that is enough to say it was OVERUSED. And for Joss to want to bring back Gun, Fred, and Tara would be dumb cuz that would make 7 people that came back from the dead. Which would be pathetic and would be bad writing. Just becuse you like Tara dosent mean she HAS to come back. She is dead, done old news. I liked Fred but it dosent make it ok to bring her back. Thats what keeps things interesting to move forward in a story. It keeps the people guessing and interested in something. I hope he dosent bring anyone back, it would be poor writing. Ok im done now.

Buffy stabbed him with A SWORD. Last time I checked Angel was a vampire, and that does not kill. And there is no way you could know it would be hugs and puppies. Moot point. From what I've read I can tell you it can be done with excellent writing. I dare you to say such a thing on the WolfPack (The forum for The Chosen) and walk away without being chewed up and spit back out. I'm not saying it because I "like" Tara. I'm saying it because it was Joss himself who was planning it already.

I think that it could go either way. Everyone knows Joss loves to tease, so all possible evidence pointing to her ressurection aside, Joss may not do it. Or he may. Who knows? That dude is nuts. (Which is why he rocks so hard) But, I think that there is no doubt that Tara will be somehow involved in the comic. Whether it be a ressurection (which I would be happy to see and not at all bored or concerned with the plot devices or the character development) or an attempted ressurection, or a dream, or a ghost (which would be neat because ghosts haven't been addressed very much in the Buffyverse and it would cause interesting character drama with Willow), or cross dimensional hijinks, Tara will be around, I can feel it.

I'm not "wrapping it up in pretty bows" I'm saying that legitimately, Angel didn't die, that's one off the list. And I'm saying it's never done the same way which is interesting. And thirdly, like I said, anyone's point on whether or not Willow's development is invalidated is moot. No one could know how Willow will react. From my story reading experience, I can say it can be done without nullifying what she did. It is something that no matter what she will always live with. OK. Angel was stabbed through the heart and sucked into hell, body and soul. If he hadn't been SENT back, made to come back by somehting ELSES power he would not have been able to come back at all. For all intents and purposes he was dead. Yah, he didn't dust like a normal vampire kill, but there's more than one way to skin a cat, as the old saying goes. But we aren't arguing about the Buffyverse rules on killing a vampire. Point is Angel was GONE. He came back as the result of power beyond his own. You want to argue that he wasn't "dead", fine, split hairs and believe what you will. The fact remains it was the same situation. He was gone, never to return unless something powerful made him return. It's the exact same situation we are talking about here, so it is a fine example of the wrtiers presenting the same result surrounded by different circumstances. It's the same box wrapped in different coloured bows. I'm not saying YOU are wraping it up in bows. Let me clear up what I meant. I meant the writer can dress it up anyway he/she wants. They can change the specific circumstances under which someone comes back, but the result is still the same. It doesn't matter if "the powers that be" decided to ressurect someone, or if Willow used a spell to bring someone back, they were killed but their sould went into some magical thing-a-majig and then was released and came back to life, or if for some reason they rise from the grave as a corpse and still retained their personality. All of that is just the circumstances surrounding the specific event, window dressing, the colourful bow around the gift. The result is always the same. The character was dead but now they aren't. It doesn't matter how it was done, the fact is it was done. It's fine to do it a couple times if it's written well and the circumstances are interesting. It's inevitable in a long running show to use the same plot device more than once. The problem comes when you use it too many times. When you get to about the tird time it gets a little boring. By the fourth it is over used. By the fifth it shows that clearly the writiers have run out of ideas. The more they use it the less effective it becomes and cheaper it feels. Yep, Willow will always live with it. Yah, we've established that. And I'm happy you can be entertained by the same thing over and over again. I want to be entertained in new ways. And just like your opinion that you don't think it nullifies all of the pain Williow went through, in my opioin it does nullify it. You are making the simple fact that Tara died less important and effective because she comes back. She's not dead anymore. So anything that happened as a result of that character's death looses a lot, if not all, of it's impact because the cause of those specific events has been reversed. Willow didn't freak because Warren Shot Tara, that hasn't changed. She freaked because Tara was dead. Bringing Tara back completely robs the events that followed it of all of their power and emotion after the fact. Why did they bother doing such a powerful arch for Willow if they are just going to reverse the cause for the drama that followed?

See bringing a character back is never, in the buffyverse, the same thing over again. Never has been. They wouldn't fall into a trap that would make it like any other. And Willow's "freaking" was cause, yes partially by the fact that Tara was dead, but more because she was struggling with an addiction to magic. Do you think for a moment that if she had ever touched black magic in "Tough Love" she would have tried to destroy the world? Nope. Sure she would have gone bonkers at Tara's death, but it's the black magic that is the scary part of her. THAT is what they are always saying in Season 7 is the problem, not that she lost Tara. The black magic is the dangerous thing that is intwined with her being and will never completely go away, with or without Tara. So I don't see how Tara coming back would effect that. But Rick, no matter what side you or I argue, I'm just saying that neither of us can know what Joss would do. I know one way the story could go and it is by no means a bad story. So yes, I get offended when you say it would be bad writing because, for all the "Tara comes back" fanfics I have read I can say most of them are bullshit. But as for the continuation I read that has a wide scope and focuses on everyone (much the way any continuing season should) it can be done very very well, because it's a subplot, not a plot. Amaya, I think you're right that even if she doesn't come back to life, it doesn't mean she won't be around. I mean we've already been told that about Anya. I mean he blatantly said it. I really wanna see Anya as a ghost, I can only imagine that as hysterical

I think I pinpointed a lot of the reason behind my anger at Tara's death, and why I've never felt so passionately about any other character coming back. It's not because of the fact she died, it's because of how she died, how her death was treated. I think it's because of the fact that she was really murdered, she had a real death. Granted, yes, Joyce had a real death as well, but there is a difference. Joyce's death was medical and largely unavoidable. Tara's death was a "if she was standing once inch to her left she wouldn't have died" kinda death. I just finished watching Shells again, and I gotta say Fred was my favorite character on Angel, but I don't feel as bitter about her death as about Tara's. Perhaps it's because Amy Acker was still on the show, perhaps it's because we got that little flashback of her leaving home, or when Illyria took on her form when her parent's visited. Maybe it's because we know her soul is gone. Most people who've died in the Buffyverse have had a death that could never happen. The exceptions are Joyce and Tara, and I said earlier Joyce's was unavoidable. Maybe it strikes my own fear of being murdered that is the reason why it bothers me so much. Because I'm trying to watch a show where the impossible happens on a regular basis, and I suddenly feel like I could be watching an episode of Forensic Files on Court TV. It's that realness that makes me so sick. I don't watch Buffy for what's real, though it has great messages that could be carried into our reality. Have them sacrafice themselves, die protecting someone, be taken over by a demon, get their neck snapped by a vampire, but damnit, I don't want to see people getting shot! It's why I knew Wesley was going to walk away fine from being shot, and having his throat slit, because those were all too real for a Buffyverse death. And most characters, after their death, aren't forgotten. Everyone usually remembers, but it seems the only one who even remembered Tara was Willow. That was until I read the comic, and I saw Xander mention Tara. It was a huge relief to me to know that she wasn't forgotten.

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